[obol] "Natural" systems

[DJLauten and KACastelein]

Dennis P. Vroman wrote:

   If indigenous peoples in the Oregon valleys burned them
> many years back, could this not be considered an "un-natural" event, would 
> it not be humans attempting to change or stagnate a system?
> 

This raises an interesting point/question (not to drift from this topic 
too far), not necessarily related to ecosystems, but then again, maybe 
it is.

Aren't humans part of nature, and therefore aren't we 'natural', and 
aren't the things we do to the landscape as natural as what a lightning 
strike fire does to a forest?  Who defines 'natural'?

So, out there in the ocean ecosystem, there are huge floating islands 
made of steel that birds who wander occasionally land on and hitch a 
ride, sometimes to the other side, where they become a vagrant.  Or is 
that not 'natural' and therefore they can't be counted, because they 
really aren't a vagrant....or at least a 'natural' vagrant....even 
though they naturally flew over the ocean, and they naturally landed on 
something to rest....what if that something was a log, and it took them 
across the ocean and they became a vagrant....is that more 'natural' 
than the ship it landed on?

I submit that natural is in the eye of the beholder.  Of course it was 
totally natural for the indigenous people to burn the prairie - their 
lives depended on it.  I'm not so sure we can argue that humans are 
somehow above the rest of nature.

So what about those clearcuts......? Natural?

Apologies if I missed or reiterated a point already discussed.

Cheers
Dave Lauten