[obol] "Natural" systems

[Gerard.Lillie]

Dave's point about those large, floating, moving metal islands in the ocean 
(ships) being part of the "natural" landscape is an interesting and I feel 
valid point. This is an issue that records committees deal with frequently. 
In the past ocean going ships have always been thought of as not being a 
natural part of the ocean ecosystem and therefore any bird that arrives in 
an area where it is considered rare cannot be "counted" on the state or 
ones' list. I feel that ships surely are a part of the "natural" world 
today. In fact, they have been for several centuries, only today there are 
vastly more of them and they are huge. I am of the opinion that if a bird 
shows up in an area where it is considered rare and it was possibly ship 
assisted, it should be considered a qualified addition to a state and 
personal list. There are simply too many ships crossing the oceans to ignore 
them as being part of the "natural" landscape. I'm sure there will be many 
dissenting opinions on this matter.

Good birding, Gerard.

Gerard Lillie
Portland, OR USA
gerard.lillie at comcast.net


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "DJLauten and KACastelein" <deweysage at verizon.net>
To: "OBOL" <OBOL at lists.orst.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [obol] "Natural" systems


> Dennis P. Vroman wrote:
>
>   If indigenous peoples in the Oregon valleys burned them
>> many years back, could this not be considered an "un-natural" event, 
>> would
>> it not be humans attempting to change or stagnate a system?
>>
>
> This raises an interesting point/question (not to drift from this topic
> too far), not necessarily related to ecosystems, but then again, maybe
> it is.
>
> Aren't humans part of nature, and therefore aren't we 'natural', and
> aren't the things we do to the landscape as natural as what a lightning
> strike fire does to a forest?  Who defines 'natural'?
>
> So, out there in the ocean ecosystem, there are huge floating islands
> made of steel that birds who wander occasionally land on and hitch a
> ride, sometimes to the other side, where they become a vagrant.  Or is
> that not 'natural' and therefore they can't be counted, because they
> really aren't a vagrant....or at least a 'natural' vagrant....even
> though they naturally flew over the ocean, and they naturally landed on
> something to rest....what if that something was a log, and it took them
> across the ocean and they became a vagrant....is that more 'natural'
> than the ship it landed on?
>
> I submit that natural is in the eye of the beholder.  Of course it was
> totally natural for the indigenous people to burn the prairie - their
> lives depended on it.  I'm not so sure we can argue that humans are
> somehow above the rest of nature.
>
> So what about those clearcuts......? Natural?
>
> Apologies if I missed or reiterated a point already discussed.
>
> Cheers
> Dave Lauten
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> obol mailing list
> obol at lists.oregonstate.edu
> http://lists.oregonstate.edu/mailman/listinfo/obol
>
> To unsubscribe, send a message to:
> obol-leave at lists.oregonstate.edu.