[obol] photo quiz and people on obol

[David Bailey]

Oregon birders,

This discussion has surprised me. I was even more surprised by who 
started the discussion. I actually have to agree with Mr. Phil Pickering 
on this one where in the past I have found his character towards gull 
identification to be at times (though not all times) overly speculative, 
in the case of Mr. Chris Warren's and Mr. Dave Iron's photo quizzes he 
is dead on.

Whereas I had absolutely no problem at all with the gull (now divulged 
as a THAYER'S) in Chris's initial "Quiz Bird #5," Dave Iron's gull quiz 
of three different individuals includes two birds that, given the single 
photos, are absolutely NOT discernible as non-hybrids.

Additionally, OBOL is a public forum. Chris's Bird Quizzes absolutely 
fall within the very general guidelines for the content of this 
listserv. Mr. Sullivan (and anyone else for that matter) need not 
participate if he wishes not to--in anything suggested by this forum, 
including identify birds from bird photo quizzes. The quizzes need not 
be seen as competitive either. They can be tools for ones own personal 
and private learning--just take a look at the pictures (lots of us do 
this already), make note of the possibility or possibilities that come 
to mind as an answer and keep it to yourself. When the answers are 
posted your learning can then continue. It it pains you so to be wrong, 
then don't participate in the activity--simple enough.

On Frontiers of Bird Identification listserv: Dave is throwing out the 
baby with the bathwater on this opportunity. I subscribe to that list 
and have learned tremendously over the years from the prose and photos 
of its many contributers. It has not been "taken over" by laridophiles, 
though the gull threads are very frequent and often there have been 
herds worths of horse corpses beaten on impossible to identify gull 
photos. If I see "Thayer's," "Kuemlian's," or "Iceland" Gull in the 
subject line I generally delete those messages now. I rarely look at any 
of the posts that have "Western" or "Glaucous-winged" gull in them 
either. But, I do read many others such as those on shorebirds, or 
warblers, or orioles, and more. Don't take Dave's word for it only, try 
it out yourself. Try using www.birdingonthe.net to browse this and many 
other lists including OBOL if you don' have too much free time and don't 
want to fill up your email inbox. I have doing it that way for years. It 
am subscribed to OBOL, but I have set my settings to "no-mail." In this 
way I can send messages to Obol, but do not receive any. I just read 
them on Siler's pages: www.birdingonthe.net. Easy.

Dave Iron's post frustrated me a bit because I found it to include too 
many assumptions on what the audience composed of the subscribers to 
OBOL want from the list. Not everyone is a beginner. Not everyone is an 
expert. Many are expert at some groups of birds and intermediate at 
others. When I was just starting out I wanted the hard quizzes and the 
challenges. My id skill quickly improved under the tutelage of experts 
like Jeff Gilligan, Owen Schmidt, Harry Nehls, and Dave Irons. If this 
had been easier I wouldn't be as good at birding as I am today. Any 
teacher worth her salt will tell you that asking for work on a problem 
for which there is no definite answer is not a waste of teaching. Much 
can be learned.

I consider Dave Irons to be a friend and I have know him and birded with 
him off and on for over twenty years now. We have often agreed on 
opinions at Oregon Birds Records Committee meetings where most of the 
other members have not. In this case though, I just can't sit back and 
let Dave dictate what is or isn't appropriate for OBOL, bird quizzes, or 
birding any more than I can with other members of this forum. I DO 
though welcome and appreciate Dave's thoughts and thank him for sharing 
his opinions.

I would recommend that if people like Chris want higher participation in 
their photos quizzes that they find a web page host where the @ symbol 
does not appear in the web address. You are probably cutting out more 
than half of your potential participants just by dint of having that @ 
symbol in the web address. Try blogger.com. I have used it with success.

Final thought: Why was the Red-throated Loon so easy to identify (it 
wasn't) compared to the gull in quiz 5?

Now, go birding. On Saturday 23 February there were three VIOLET-GREEN 
SWALLOWS flying high over the Mill Ponds in Seaside. Today there were 
SURFBIRDS, BLACK TURNSTONES, AND BLACK OYSTERCATCHERS at Arch Cape, 
Clatsop County.

Shalom,

David

David C. Bailey
Seaside, Oregon



Chris Warren's gull (quiz #5 and New quiz #5) < http://www.flickr.com/photos/22884719@N03/ >


Dave Iron's gull quiz: < http://www.flickr.com/photos/24148185@N07 >



> *Subject: photo quiz and people on obol*
> From: "Judy Meredith" <jmeredit AT bendnet.com>
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 21:33:06 -0800
> Hi obol
> I think it is simple  - think about ALL of it as something 
> worthwhile.  Most of us are on a learning path at some
> stage. Sometimes we have a lot of time and curiosity and 
> feel more able to work on something that may be time 
> consuming etc. I don't feel that the issue is about whether 
> the bird can be identified or not,  nor is it about who is an
> expert and gets the correct answer.  Most of us are here to 
> learn and to share and not to judge others or to compete. 
> So anyone can post any quiz they want as far as I am 
> concerned. Those who want to work on it will.  
>   
> *Subject: Re: Quiz Bird #5*
> From: Chris Warren <warrech AT earlham.edu>
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 13:56:22 -0800
> Well, I have to say that I was a little surprised by the responses to Quiz
> bird #5 so far.  Mainly because I felt that this bird was not beyond
> identification to species.  Having said that, now I have begun doubt myself.
> I thought long and hard about whether or not to use a gull at all for the
> quiz but I went ahead anyway being confident in my own ID.  Now that so many
> have expressed concerns (especially Dave Irons?s detailed response) I have
> sufficient concern to replace this week?s quiz bird.  I have other shots of
> this bird and I will post a more profile shot for comparison and comment but
> Quiz #5 will be replaced.  I do apologize.
>
> Now about the difficulty of the quiz in general.  Both Dave Irons and Mike
> Patterson mentioned or eluded that they feel that the quiz is too difficult
> for the majority of subscribers.  I do agree that the quiz should be
> accessible to as many people as possible but part of what I enjoy most about
> photo quizzes is being challenged.  I am new to hosting a photo quiz and
> judging difficulty level is perhaps the most difficult part.  Knowing that
> we all have different skill and experience levels makes it particularly hard
> to choose a photo that will be challenging yet attainable.  Having said all
> that I recognize that this week?s quiz bird, with its possible ambiguity and
> difficulty, was a mistake.
>
> Gulls can be scary but need not be so.  There is no doubt that they can be
> very challenging and, sometimes, impossible to ID to species.  I certainly
> bow to Dave?s expertise on gull ID and I agree with his cautions about gull
> ID especially in the Pacific Northwest.  I will add that, given the
> challenges, I urge everyone to give gull ID a shot.  Do not leave gulls to
> the ?experts.?  They present a challenge, sure, but they can be a lot of fun
> if you let them.  After all is that not what birding is about (among other
> things)?  I am replacing this week?s quiz because I now doubt my ability to
> give a completely accurate answer (which is certainly expected from the quiz
> master after all.)  No disservice intended.  I hope that this quiz remains
> fun and light hearted.  That is and remains my intent.

* *
> **Subject: Re: New Quiz and Answer to Quiz #4***
> From: DAVID IRONS <llsdirons AT msn.com>
> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 17:26:29 +0000
> *
> *Greetings All,
>
> I am not trying to drop a wet blanket on intellectual curiosity. I like ID 
> quizzes as much as the next birder and most provide a good learning tool. I 
> have puzzled over many that were complete stumpers for me and guys who are a 
> lot sharper on such things than I am. However, in most of those cases the image 
> showed a more complete representation of the bird's characteristics. 
>
>
> In this instance, my point was relative to gulls and to the across the board 
> experience and interest level of the folks on the list. This might be a 
> stretch, but I would guess that the majority of subscribers to this list have 
> never hauled their spotting scope or camera off to the local dump for several 
> hours of gull watching (and lovely odor). I've done it (many times), as I'm 
> sure is the case with Phil Pickering and Doug Robinson. This puts the three of 
> us at a jumping off point where we can make some highly educated speculations 
> about the identification of this bird. However, if we start trying to explain 
> the subtleties we are using to make these determinations to someone less 
> experienced, we are likely to get blank stares in return. If you are going to 
> teach someone, you have to start where they are at and move them forward step 
> by step. Most of us have sat through a class where the instructor(s) was trying 
> to demonstrate how smart they were by talking "over the head" of the entire 
> class. At the end there is the invariable murmur among students, "do you have 
> any idea what he/she was talking about." I'm sure more than one OBOL subscriber 
> looked at the image of this gull and thought, "how am I supposed to ID this?" 
>
>
> If you are truly interested in the minutiae of gull of ID, ID-Frontiers is the 
> place to go get it. In this case, I think it is important to remember the 
> community we are trying to serve. There is no gain in further mystifying gull 
> ID by proving we can extract minor details from this image that make a case for 
> a particular ID. If someone wants to get a better handle on the subtleties of 
> gulls, I recommend they find a mentor like Doug, Phil or me and spend a day or 
> two in the field looking at hundreds, if not thousands, of individual gulls. 
> Gull ID is not a skill that can be mastered by viewing images online. 
>
>
> So far, we are hearing only from "gull experts" on this issue. I would like to 
> hear the opinions of those less into gull ID. Every point of view has merit in 
> this sort of debate, and our listserv will be strengthened by more broad-based 
> participation. I spent this past weekend birding in Washington with three 
> veteran birders in that state. They were unanimous in saying they think OBOL is 
> a much stronger forum than the one (Tweeters) that serves their state. I have 
> heard this from visitors from all over the country, who bemoan the quality of 
> discussion on their local listserv. In most states, this type of list has been 
> hijacked either by "feeder watchers" or by those who want to prove how smart 
> they are. ID-Frontiers provides a case study in what can happen when a list 
> becomes too smart. I know several elite level birders who have completely lost 
> interest in this list and abandoned it. It was a much better forum 6-7 years 
> ago, when you could count on highly educated posts as opposed to some of the 
> crazy speculation that appears there now. 
>
>
> Dave Irons
> Eugene, OR*

> > Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 06:29:31 -0800
> > From: douglas.robinson AT oregonstate.edu
> > To: obol AT lists.oregonstate.edu
> > Subject: Re: [obol] New Quiz and Answer to Quiz #4
> > 
> > Dave et al,
> > 
> > The value of photo quizzes is not extinguished when there is no definitive
> > answer. As a teacher, one must realize that the process of examination and
> > elimination of alternatives is just as important as reaching a defensible
> > final answer. 
> > 
> > Saying that quizzes without a definitive answer are useless is like saying
> > that the world is black and white and we are are uncomfortable with all
> > shades of gray, whether they be on the backs of gulls or elsewhere.
> > 
> > Quiz on!
> > 
> > Douglas Robinson
> > Ivory Tower University


> *Subject: Re: New Quiz and Answer to Quiz #4* From: DAVID IRONS 
> <llsdirons AT msn.com> Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2008 04:50:50 +0000
> Dear Chris, and anyone tempted to guess what this bird is,
>
> I consider myself sharper than the average marble when it comes to gull ID, and 
> I will confidently assert that this bird is unidentifiable from this single 
> shot. Aside from the leg color, and apparent shade of the mantle (Owen 
> Schmidt's recent posting shows how confident we can be about assessing gray 
> tones from a single image) and the black wingtips, there is very little about 
> this bird we can be sure about. Before one starts identifying gulls with 
> certainty, you have to be able to evaluate the following characteristics, none 
> of which can be seen well in this photo: 
>
>
> 1. Bill length, shape, and color -- This straight on shot provides no view of 
> the bill length or shape and we only get a hint of the color. 
>
>
> 2. Eye color -- This image sort of suggests that this bird has a light eye, but 
> it is a stretch to glean even that much from this image. 
>
>
> 3. Head shape -- General head shape and forehead slope often provide useful 
> clues to the identity gulls. Head shape cannot be determined from this photo. 
>
>
> 4. Overall shape and proportions -- It is invariably helpful to determine if a 
> gull is heavy or slightly built and how the long the wings are before 
> identifying it. Though we can tell a little about the build of this bird, the 
> wing length cannot be accurately assessed with this image. 
>
>
> 5. Pattern of the wingtips -- This is critical. In order to properly ID most 
> pink-legged gulls, you want to see how extensive the black is on the wingtips, 
> make sure the black is black and not dusky gray (eliminating hybrids and 
> intergrades), and get a look at the size of the white spots in the wing tips. 
> The wingtips on this bird look black and there is nothing to suggest it is a 
> hybrid, but beyond that I cannot make a useful assessment of the wingtips on 
> this bird. 
>
>
> In my opinion, it is a disservice to our birding community to post this type of 
> photo as a "Quiz Bird." Posting ID quiz birds implies that this bird can be 
> identified with certainty based on characteristics seen in this image. Most 
> birders are confused enough about gulls, and many have an outright reluctance 
> to tackle the subtleties of sorting out this difficult group. Encouraging them 
> to engage in the brain strain of trying to figure out this bird is not going to 
> encourage these folks to want to learn more about gulls. Someone may step 
> forward claiming to be able to positively ID this bird, but I would advise 
> against being duped by claimed expertise with regard to this image. 
>
>
> I used to subscribe to the "ID-Frontiers," which is a national listserv forum 
> for folks who want to really dissect difficult ID questions. This listserv has 
> devolved into mostly gull ID discussion and some of the most frequent 
> contributors claim to be able ID various hybrids and intergrades with certainty 
> down to the exact number of crosses and backcrosses involved in producing a 
> particular individual. To be frank, this is folly, and I finally unsubscribed 
> after getting tired of the increasingly outlandish claims these online experts 
> put forth. The first thing anyone endeavoring to learn gulls must understand is 
> that they will never be able to positively ID every gull they see. 
>
>
> Here in the Pacific Northwest, this problem is particularly acute due to the 
> incredible numbers of apparent hybrids in our local gull flocks. 
> Glaucous-winged X Western Gulls provide the bulk of this hybrid swarm, and 
> there are sites where more than 50% of the gulls one sees are hybrids and 
> backcrosses of these two species. The broad overlap in the breeding range and 
> the frequency of hybridization has produced an unbroken cline of phenotypes 
> from "pure" Western to "pure" Glaucous-winged. There are several other 
> regularly occurring hybrids including Glaucous X Herring, Glaucous X 
> Glaucous-winged, and Glaucous-winged X Herring. If you are just starting out 
> with gulls, this menagerie should be ignored and you should focus on finding 
> textbook representations of the adults of each species first, and then work 
> into learning the different age classes of each species. Identification of 
> hybrids is usually speculative at best. If we really want to help the majority 
> of OBOL subscribers, we should be posting good profile shots of adult birds 
> that are unambiguous (at least to those well versed in gull ID, which is likely 
> the few rather than the many). ID quizzes should be geared to less experienced 
> birders rather than testing the wits of the 20 or so hardcore gull watchers who 
> are subscribers. 
>
>
> Dave Irons
> Eugene, OR
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:41:14 -0800
> > From: warrech AT earlham.edu
> > To: obol AT lists.oregonstate.edu
> > Subject: [obol] New Quiz and Answer to Quiz #4
> > 
> > I just posted the answer to last week's quiz and added the new quiz to my
> > Flickr page. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/22884719 AT N03/)  Remember that
> > obol might replace the "at" symbol in the web address with AT.
> > So you may need to replace those manually.  Sorry about that.
> > 
> > Last week's quiz had only one correct answer!  Good luck this week!
> > 
> > Chris Warren
> > Portland, OR